Professional Coaches and Personal Friends
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Introduction
Satisfaction and loyalty – the holy grails for relationships – personal, professional, internal and external.
The two are mentioned in the same sentence all the time – like a double act in comedy, foods that complement each other or a famous sporting duo – but they’re not necessarily found together all the time.
Satisfaction is an attitude – Loyalty is the behaviour. People may be satisfied but not loyal – and loyal people may not always be satisfied
Stephen walks us through this model that looks at different components that make up Satisfaction and Loyalty. Once you understand them, you can manage them. And then you can decide which relationships you want to build up into ones that are full of satisfaction and loyalty.
Thanks for your support - it is appreciated. Any comments or thoughts - let us know.
Full Transcript (AI-generated so please forgive the typos)
Warren Hammond 00:56
Welcome back, Podcats, to another episode of our podcast. This one's a good one. I always say that, this one is a Loyalty and Satisfaction or Satisfaction and Loyalty. I'm always tempted to put in 'Customer' before that, it just seems to be one of those phrases that we always hear; Customer satisfaction and Customer loyalty, we spend ages talking about it. It's one of the key metrics for business success. That is covered and it's talked about, but also how we can take this into other areas of our lives. internal and external. So it's looking at the whole relationship. So it's good, there's a model, there's a six point guide at the end. So there's lots to take away. Any thoughts questions, give us a shout, podcast@coachpro.online or find us on LinkedIn. There is a full transcript available for these so please look that up. And on www.coachpro.online itself there's loads more models and frameworks that you can use. So let's get straight into it. I’ll beback at the end with some brief comments. Here comes the cheesy music.
Warren Hammond 02:11
So here we are. Normal call signs, Edinburgh, can you hear me?
Stephen Gribben 02:16
Loud and clear
Warren Hammond 02:17
Loud and clear? It's not a surprise anymore. But when we started this a year ago, all the zoom and the video conferencing, it felt that this was almost magic, it was almost wizardry, the fact that we could hear each other, even though we were countries apart now is the most normal thing in the world. Anyway, today, we're discussing satisfaction, and loyalty. Now I know I've got in my head while I think of loyalty and satisfaction. And I'm immediately thinking of customers and NPS etc. And I also know that I always think about these things too small. So let's go to Stephen and get a formal definition that we can kick ourselves off with. So how should we think about satisfaction and loyalty? What's the definition we should be using Stephen?
Stephen Gribben 03:08
Well, satisfaction is about attitude. And loyalty is about behaviour.
Stephen Gribben 03:16
Typically in relationships, whether that is as a customer relationship, or a personal relationship, or professional relationship, satisfaction is the attitude, how you feel and how you judge; loyalty's about behaviour, which is about what you then do.
Warren Hammond 03:34
That's a good definition. Because I do you think that sometimes we use satisfaction in a broader way. But that makes sense. And so this is an attitude, this is how you're feeling about something. And loyalty is then how you're demonstrating that feeling that behaviour.
Stephen Gribben 03:51
Yeah, typically, this is used in the concept of customer and there's value in that. But you'll get customer satisfaction, which is based largely on your attitude of what's happened. But that doesn't necessarily always lead them to customer loyalty. So you'll get people who will say satisfaction versus loyalty, rather than satisfaction AND loyalty. And ideally, what you're looking for in a relationship is satisfaction and loyalty.
Warren Hammond 04:19
You're I mean, maybe it's because he's in the middle of the day. You know, we're not sitting in a pub with a beer or a glass of wine. Because if you were to talk about loyalty and satisfaction in a social setting, you do automatically think about relationships, but it seems very different when you think about customer relationships. But how you just said this is attitude and behaviour. Yeah, it's different relationships where both of these things are important.
Stephen Gribben 04:48
But if we hold on to that concept of customer, and the challenge that we've all got is how wide is your concept of customer. So, who do you consider or who could you consider to be a customer. I've used a model with clients for years, called the Client Box. I use this at home as well. In the client box, everything becomes kind of automatic for me, I know the parameters to work in. I know what I can get away with, what I cant get away with. I know what's good enough and what's not good enough. So for a client, in that client box, it becomes very clear on what professional and standard looks like. However, I can leave home in the morning and be asked what time will I be home at tonight? And my answer could be, Well, it depends on what messages I get through what calls I have to do. What else comes in during the day. Probably sometime, it could be as early as four could be as late as eight'. Because at home, I haven't put my family in that client box. If I was to say to a client, the client said, Could you be there on Tuesday, and what time will you be here, and I say to him sometime between four or eight. And then they'll say 'well, do you want to just not bother coming along until you can tell us what time you're going to be here'. So sometimes putting things in the client box gives you absolute clarity on how you should be dealing with something in that relationship. And it's not for me to pretend my family are clients, no disrespect, they're a lot more to than clients, but sometimes they deserve that attitude and behaviour that my clients benefit from
Warren Hammond 06:27
That firm border that you'd put around that. Even when you say the client box in my head, I've got that visual of a thick black frame, you know, around it, which you don't get through,
Stephen Gribben 06:39
We do this with family members. In business, we might do it with suppliers, we don't treat them as clients or we don't treat our colleagues the way we would treat clients. And people deserve to be treated as a client.
Warren Hammond 06:52
Okay. So this is a relationship then with way more than just intimates or customers, this is about satisfaction, as an attitude and loyalty as a behaviour, all around us. So this is a lot bigger already, as I'm getting accustomed to. So we talk a lot about personal growth, and especially about self development. So how does satisfaction and loyalty, and understanding that, fit within the whole self development philosophy?
Stephen Gribben 07:26
Well, as you know, the four pillars in self development are self awareness, self confidence, self management, and self determination. And what self development is about is focusing on your strengths and what you're really good at, and building upon those so that when you take on those gaps or areas of weakness that you want to improve, they become less challenging, and you're more authentic in it. So in terms of self awareness, what this is about is becoming more aware of the level of satisfaction and loyalty, so the attitudes and the behaviours that you want to foster or to have within relationships, both personally and professionally. So becoming more aware of what makes a relationship have satisfaction and loyalty to the level that you want.
Warren Hammond 08:15
So this is part of then understanding what the terms are the satisfaction and loyalty which we touched on which we'll go through more, but also understanding when you should be aware of satisfaction and loyalty, that's that whole self awareness thing. Okay,
Stephen Gribben 08:29
This is self awareness so you're consciously aware of what a good relationship looks like. So that you get beyond saying, we've got a great relationship or with that person I don't have such a good relationship, or you know, better relationships than others. It's having that self awareness, to be more conscious of why certain relationships are at certain stages. So you become more aware, therefore, you're already more empowered.
Warren Hammond 08:55
Love that. And that is the consciousness that we talk about as well. You're owning it. It isn't something happening to you, you've actually can see it, you're noticing it, you're acknowledging it, and therefore you've got a chance of working to make it better. Okay? So self awareness is the first plank,
Stephen Gribben 09:11
Then self confidence. And self confidence is making sure that if you're aware of what's going to drive your satisfaction and loyalty, having the confidence to making sure you're bringing that all the time. Consciously aware of what you contribute, based upon your strengths, what you're good at. What are you good at that drives satisfaction, loyalty to the level that you're wanting to either give it or receive it. You're, therefore, getting those great relationships by being you rather than trying to force the great relationships by pretending to be something or someone else.
Warren Hammond 09:49
And that confidence then, and you talk about this before is, this isn't fake confidence. It isn't a fake way of working, a crutch or something you're getting from a guru. This is you looking at yourself and connecting with those strengths, and knowing because you have those strengths you can do whatever needs to happen.
Stephen Gribben 10:06
Yeah, it's getting fantastic relationships for you being you. It's you getting the right attitude and behaviour, giving out and in return, for you being you, not by other people's perceptions or your pretence,
Warren Hammond 10:20
yeah, that self confidence is massive to get stuff done,
Stephen Gribben 10:23
Then on to self management, which is by now knowing what you consider to be of value in terms of driving satisfaction and loyalty, it is having that self management of sticking to that, that discipline, that ensuring that you keep your standards, that consistency of looking for those standards from others. So that's self management. So there's not relationships through compromise, but relationships through assertion of what's important to you and important to them in terms of driving satisfaction and loyalty.
Warren Hammond 10:57
That's massive, isn't it? We talked before about self help, and information. So the self awareness and the self confidence is a higher stage in that, knowing that you can do something, knowing what you should do. The self management then is that discipline in execution and consistency of effort to make sure that those things you know you should be doing, you are doing. Yeah, I mean, that's easier said than done.
Stephen Gribben 11:24
And then self determination. And that's that 'you deciding'. That's the 'what relationships do you want to have? With whom do you want to build those relationships? What do you want those relationships to be built upon? In terms of attitude and behaviour to drive satisfaction and loyalty? What do you want the value to be understood by. So you're determining what the fullest potential for you is going to look like to bring you fulfilment, happiness, success for being you, a genuine relationship. And that, tapping back into the self management, is not you just accepting things on anybody else's terms for the sake of it. So you taking that self determination what amazing and fantastic will look like for you.
Warren Hammond 12:11
I love that. I love when, whenever you say the self determination thing, I just get bigger and bigger inside, this is just such a strong idea. And the great thing about the self development is this gives you the steps on how to do it, because we all want to determine our future. And as you said, if you're not telling yourself, then someone else is doing it for you. Good luck with that, I think is how you say it regularly. And I love that. And then, of course, we all want to determine our own future. But there is that how do I do it? And this whole self development ladder of the awareness, of the confidence, of the self management are the steps to get there? Love this. Okay. So the satisfaction and loyalty forms part of this as well, this is going to be good. So why are we discussing this now?
Stephen Gribben 13:01
Now more than ever, when you've got so much information, so many opinions getting thrown out at you of what you should be satisfied with and loyal to. This is more than ever critical that you're making your conscious choices, conscious decisions, on what matters to you, what's worth your level of commitment to be satisfied and loyal. And then equally important for you then to be able to determine the satisfaction and loyalty that you want to receive from whom, and from where, and knowing how to get it more than ever, rather than other people telling you if you want to be successful, this is what you need to value. Well, actually, it's understanding what you really value and then saying how do I achieve the success, fulfilment and happiness that I really want through this
Warren Hammond 13:51
You did this similar trick with (trick in the nicest way) with Value is that you sometimes think that these are things that are active FROM you. But it's actually also understanding that these things happen TO you as well. These things are all around you, and pressing on you and you pressing on them.
Stephen Gribben 14:09
And to take this to its core with self development it always starts with you. And are you satisfied and loyal to yourself? You know, are you showing the right attitude to yourself and the right behaviours to yourself, that you value that relationship. And this is where self development really comes in, it is understanding yourself, knowing where your strengths are, having that discipline and rigour to be at your best, and you determining what matters to you, enables you to drive that satisfaction and loyalty internally so that you have that relationship with you rather than being in conflict with yourself.
Warren Hammond 14:51
Wow. Imagine that. Looking at all the relationships, the attitudes, the behaviours towards yourself and being totally satisfied with that. Okay, let's get going. This is good.
Stephen Gribben 15:04
The model on this is a triangle. And that triangle is labelled Satisfaction and Loyalty. And on each of the three sides of the three components, that will determine the level of satisfaction and loyalty that you get within it.
Warren Hammond 15:23
So is the satisfaction and loyalty triangle, just any normal triangle?
Stephen Gribben 15:29
Any normal triangle that you wish. The labels along the side, so each of the three sides is a component, and the first one is Quality. So this is how well things are done. So on a business perspective, if you are a customer of a business, you might look at the quality of the products, the quality of the service, the quality of the workmanship, the quality of the connection, the quality of the presentation. On a personal level, you may look at the quality of someone's communication, theie personality, the quality of their background, education, understanding, knowledge on a topic. It might be in the quality in terms of personality, how you connect with them. It could be a whole load of things in terms of quality, what you would consider to be that's of good quality.
Warren Hammond 16:27
Okay, I'm keen, see what the other two are and I think that will help me understand what the differences between them all are. So I wont ask too many questions.
Stephen Gribben 16:35
The second of it is Innovative. How different. So this is, if you're a customer to a business, it might be 'what they can do that is different from somewhere else. It's something you can't get anywhere else. It's a product or service, an accessory, a range, or access that you can't get anywhere else.
Warren Hammond 17:03
Okay. I can see how that works with let's say, loyalty, for example. So sort of, as you're saying, I'm thinking, the satisfaction is kind of in that quality, I'm really happy with what I'm getting, what I'm receiving, what I'm feeling, then if it's different, that's a good reason for me to stick with somebody or something. But I'm trying not to get too literal, which is why I said, I'll try and leave more of my silly questions to the end. But that makes sense. And that's a reason I'm sticking with this person, with this service, with this business, is I'm getting something different then I get somewhere else and innovation. And that's a positive difference. That's why the word innovation is used?
Stephen Gribben 17:44
yeah, it's something that's just not going to be able to get somewhere else. So it's not necessarily you would think it's better, because that's in quality, you're looking for something that's different. That's why it's innovative. So on a personal level, there may be someone who's got a really innovative background, innovative experience to you, because it's not better experienced, it's something totally different. They've different experiences, different backgrounds, different parts of the world, different cultures, you know, they have a different perspective on things. And that's why on a personal level, you would class them as a friendly relationship, because you're satisfied to catch up with them. And you are loyal, you would do it again. Because they're interesting,
Warren Hammond 18:29
Different, yes, I keep doing this, 'better or worse'. And every single time you pull me up on it, which is good. Just to remind me that I keep always thinking that something has to be labelled something better or worse, and you're saying is no, it's different. It straddles both. Okay, we've got quality, which is how things are done, how things are seen, how things are perceived. Innovative, so this is different. And then what's the last?
Stephen Gribben 18:59
The third one is the Experience. So as a customer, that would be your customer experience. So that would be 'how you felt the experience was in dealing with that company, in terms of how they made you feel, how they approached you, how easy it was, how straightforward things were, how welcoming, how positive was your experience in that relationship?
Warren Hammond 19:27
This is a very much how I mean, this sounds bad english but how you experienced that whole thing. So is it the feeling?
Stephen Gribben 19:37
What the process was. It was how quick it was, how accessible how convenient, how you're made to feel. Were you spoken to? Or was it just kind of thrown at you. Were you made to feel welcome and important or could it just be you and nothing else. Were you made to feel worthless or you know, on that customer basis? Well, you know were people polite to you, were they pleased to see you there or were you seen as being an inconvenience to them. On a personal level that experience is does that person always make you feel welcome? Are they always pleased to see you? Do they always care? Do they listen? Are they interested? Do they ask enough questions? Do they make you feel that this is a good, safe, secure place to be in or not? So it is your experience of that relationship
Warren Hammond 20:24
It's quite subjective, isn't it, that experience is how you felt about that welcome, that product, that politeness that whatever it is, and that's obvious in a way, because you know, customer experience, of course, it is a subjective, but just as you're explaining it there, you suddenly realise just how subjective it is, how personal that experience is, whether it's a personal relationship, or a customer relationship, you know, there's no guarantee how everyone's going to take that experience,
Stephen Gribben 20:53
You've got to make sure you're conscious and aware of it because it is a really important element in driving satisfaction and loyalty. Now, on the receiving end, those are the three things you need to be looking for if you're going to feel satisfied and loyal. And if you want to generate that satisfaction and loyalty these are the three elements that you need to make sure you're providing if you're going to get satisfaction and loyalty.
Warren Hammond 21:20
So using these three parameters, three labels, you can start then to dig into how you feel about satisfaction and loyalty. How do you start to break down a relationship, a personal relationship?
Stephen Gribben 21:37
First of all it's looking at these three sides of the triangle. And the understanding that the importance and impact in terms of satisfaction and loyalty is not equal across those three elements.
Warren Hammond 21:50
Okay, that's my first mistake, then. So I thought every single one of these three is going to be as important as each other.
Stephen Gribben 21:57
And unfortunately, that's why there's not a great deal of satisfaction and loyalty in an awful lot of relationships. There's either an assumption that they're all equal, or there is a lack of awareness on the value that each of them bring. And so there's an over reliance on maybe one and not enough attention paid to the others. Or you're trying to create a two sided triangle, which is no longer a triangle. In terms of quality, and all the research that's been put into this and I was first introduced to this a long time ago with research that was being done with Tom Peters. Fantastic, original, McKinsey guru from the 70s and 80s, he will quite happily proclaim as a cantankerous old man, and he is, I mean, he's fantastic, you know, I'm a big fan, and I've taken loads of clients to go and see him. I got the chance to work with him with Ford in Detroit. A great guy. And the research that was done then, it is still getting done now, but the figures just keep coming back. It's been a consistent piece of research, that when you look at driving satisfaction, and loyalty, the quality of what you provide is less than 25% of the decision to be satisfied and loyal.
Warren Hammond 23:24
That's absolutely nuts. I mean, when you said that they weren't going to be equal. I was trying to in my head to figure out which one I'd be putting in number one, at number two, and then number three, and you feel the quality of what you're doing has to be high. I mean, in business, that's all we all talk about is the quality of the service, how do you improve the quality of the service. But you're saying it's less than 25%? Okay.
Stephen Gribben 23:54
This is about satisfaction and loyalty, this is getting both. If the quality is good, you may be satisfied. If you were treated really poorly, you would not be keen to go back. And therefore you may be satisfied but not loyal.
Warren Hammond 24:07
Yeah. And this goes back to the first comment I said about how sometimes we forget that the two are slightly, not slightly different, very different. You think high customer satisfaction means that everyone was going to stay. No. These are two different elements,
Stephen Gribben 24:22
And on a personal level, if you've got a relationship with someone, and they're a fantastic storyteller, the quality of their entertainment is tremendous. But they always make you feel insignificant and left out. You'd be satisfied with the performance, but you probably wouldn't be that keen to be going out your way to meet up with them again,
Warren Hammond 24:41
We've all had those people in our life.
Stephen Gribben 24:43
When you look at the innovative part, the other aspect of the triangle the other side. Again, innovation is less than 25% of your decision to be satisfied and loyal. Just because it's different.
Warren Hammond 24:58
We just think aboutit. The focus that people have on disruption, we do things differently, you know, different speeds, different flavours, different ways, this whole disruptive thing is seen as being a huge driver of... is it satisfaction or loyalty? I guess this is why I'm getting it wrong again. Tthis would be a reason that you might be loyal to a degree, but would you necessarily be satisfied? And vice versa?
Stephen Gribben 25:29
This is the innovative part plays more to the loyalty because you'll be interested in what they're going to do next. Even if what they're currently doing you're not that keen on.
Warren Hammond 25:38
Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm thinking of services you've used where the quality is quite poor, but they are different, even different geography or something and you think Yeah, you you continue using them this despite the quality of the service, because they offer something different. Okay?
Stephen Gribben 25:57
You will be loyal, but you won't be satisfied. And therefore, when you then get to the experience side of the triangle, that is more than 50% of your decision to be satisfied and loyal. It's how you've been treated and dealt with.
Warren Hammond 26:15
Yeah, yes. Again, now we've gone through it, it makes sense. But I wouldn't have guessed that was so high, I would have thought it was a little bit more. I'd have put quality at number one, maybe experience at number two and innovation three. But yeah, that's crazy, more than twice.
Stephen Gribben 26:32
Yeah, if you look at this, I mean, what you're looking at is getting all three sides. So all three sides count, You really want to be looking at the quality, you really do want to be looking at the innovation, but not forgetting that these aren't equal, the experience that you provide is more than 50% of the decision to be satisfied and loyal. It's that important. To the extent where if, for instance, you're buying a kitchen, a fitted kitchen for your house, or your flat or whatever, even if the quality wasn't that great. Even if it wasn't a unique fittings in that kitchen, you could have got them somewhere else. They weren't that innovative. But the service and experience was fantastic. Then you would not just be satisfied, you would also be loyal, you would even go and start promoting, you would go and refer and you'll say a great experience they treat you so well, they really get to know you. Even though the innovation is not great. And even though the quality wasn't top quality, but if the quality is great, and the innovation is you just couldn't get that anywhere else. But they haven't yet got that experience right, you might be either satisfied or loyal, you're not gonna be satisfied and loyal.
Warren Hammond 27:53
SoI've been holding back on this question, but I've got to ask. It feels that one thing is missing from this triangle, it feels like it should be a square or a rhombus or something. When I think about especially customer satisfaction or customer loyalty, maybe not so much in a relationship you hope but where does price then fit in as being part of this satisfaction and loyalty story because we know that there is so much focus and attention on the right pricing and getting people on price promotions and people becoming obsessed with coupons and all of this sort of stuff is that a subset of one of these three? is it its own set, where should I be putting it? At the moment I've got my Q for quality, I've got my I for innovation, I've got my E for experience, but I haven't gotten the P. I need a P Bob..
Stephen Gribben 28:55
It doesn't sit in Satisfaction or Loyalty. If the quality is not great, and innovation is not there and you're treated terribly, it doesn't really matter that it was cheap. That is not going to make you satisfied and loyal. Now there will be a cost -price -charging conversation. Something has to be agreed at some point, but that's not about satisfaction and loyalty. If you're highly satisfied and highly loyal, your perception on price will be different. Because it will be price rather than cost. it will be investment rather than funding. Because what you're getting back is quality, innovation but most importantly, a fantastic experience.
Warren Hammond 29:47
You're right, Yes, it is a really great way of looking at it. It isn't part of this. It's like a set of scales or something focus on high satisfaction and loyalty and then the pricing is a different conversation.
Stephen Gribben 30:01
You get a price based upon the level of satisfaction and loyalty you generated, rather than price just being for a commodity.
Warren Hammond 30:08
You talk about different types of loyalty before you'd have the transactional loyalty, which would be your price. And then you'd have emotional loyalty, this feels a lot more close to that. I was trying to think of this model when we were talking about it. And then you have structural loyalty, which is your integrated systems and way of working. For this feels very much like a strong version of that middle one, you know, this is where you want to be getting the reasons that people are loyal, and much more than anything to do with cost or ease, or cost. Actually, this is something bigger that quality innovation experience that sort of feels like that,
Stephen Gribben 30:51
So you look then at understanding the experience is more than 50% of the decision of to be satisfied and loyal. There are six drivers that sit within the experience. So that you don't just have the experience of being good or bad, positive or negative, but actually defining what it is so that you're making conscious choices.
Warren Hammond 31:18
So this is understanding then, that things that happen to you, you will be looking through this prism of quality, innovation and experience. And when you're doing to others, they'll be receiving this through the lens of this as well. So now we understand that the experience is by far the most important component of that. So these are our six points to be conscious of, or to be thinking about, to improve how the experience lands,
Stephen Gribben 31:48
So that you can understand what a good experience looks like and feels like for you. And also so you then want to provide a really good experience for others, you know then how to do that. The first of the six things is Trust. So if you want a customer to be satisfied and loyal, then you need to work out what it is that you want them to trust you to do, and communicate that they can trust you to do that.
Warren Hammond 32:15
Yes, I know that. So because we talked before about emotional and intelligent trust is do I trust? Or do I not trust? The key question that came out of this is what can I trust this person to do? That this is what he's saying is is the customer should know, when I go into this shop or when this person is talking to you. This is what I can trust Warren will do in this situation. This is what I can trust now.
Stephen Gribben 32:42
As an example of this, as you know, I've done a lot of work with recruitment agencies and executive search firms over the years. And I'll say to them, what do your clients trust you to do? And they'll say this trust us to get the right candidate. I say no, that's quality. What they're trusting you to do in terms of the client experience is that trusting you to understand their needs, represent their brand, represent their aspirations, they're trusting you to give them best counsel and advice and guidance, trust them to give them accurate information, trusting them to be honest in the process of the search, trusting that they will look after the best interests of the clients at all times. Increasingly now the client is also trusting that they will look after the candidate properly. They're trusting that they will communicate to the candidate, they'll trust that they'll be inclusive, and fair and diverse in the search for those candidates. So all of those things they are trusting in the experience. The trust in that they'll fill the vacancy is in the quality.
Warren Hammond 33:55
Makes total sense. Yes. I love that. Okay. Trust then is a lot more than that trust. This does feel like there's a strong emotional component of that trust is if you can trust somebody to do those things. There's a sense of confidence, not relaxed isn't the word Yeah, you're confident you know what's going to happen and you're happy with it, okay.
Stephen Gribben 34:23
You'll know as a customer, if you've dealt with someone, whether you felt you could trust them. And if you just click on that word trust that drop down menu is going to come very clear for you. You're trusting they've been honest with you, you're trusting they're telling you the truth. You're trusting that it's the best price that they can offer. You're trusting that, you know, it's that they don't have a red car, it's not that blue is far more popular and more cool, and that's why you should go for it. You're trusting that they are being transparent with you. So whatever that is, in terms of what you want to trust and what's important for you to be able to trust, that's what you would look for. Equally, if you're looking at the other side of the equation of what you would want a customer or a person to trust in your relationship, it's important that they know they can trust it, and the small thing as we go through these six points. This isn't just about doing good things, and hoping someone notices. This is about specifying and communicating, preferably in advance, this is what you can count on from me
Warren Hammond 35:27
HExactly. And from a company point of view, this feels like an immediate link to branding as well. You know, this is what you get from this brand. And that's what we're communicating in advertising and marketing in the colours, we choose. Whichever buttons we're pressing in your head for trust, this is part of that story.
Stephen Gribben 35:27
And if we go back to what we said about testing how wide is your concept of customer; as an employer, do you consider your employees as being a customer? And if so, what can they trust you to do for them?
Warren Hammond 36:03
Well, you always have their interest. Will you always be doing the right thing for your customers? Will you be fair and non judgmental, and as you say conclusive. Love it.
Stephen Gribben 36:13
Typically I want to see my glass half full. But it's been reinforced with an awful lot of people over all the years I've been doing this where I believe that most people can be trusted to do really good, really kind, really compassionate, really generous things. But they don't tell people. And so there's always just a question mark. This is about having that self awareness, self confidence, self management, self determination. This is what you can count on from me. This is what you're going to get.
Warren Hammond 36:50
I love this as well. So it's being upfront about it, and then coming through and delivering, and that's great. Okay. Trust is number one.
Stephen Gribben 36:58
Second one is consistency. This is every time. So it's a consistent mindset. It is a consistent approach. It's a consistent outlook.
Warren Hammond 37:09
Yeah. And this, to me, when you're saying that links a little bit to trust is because if every time I can trust you to do something, then that trust really builds. If it's not, then I trust you to be inconsistent, if that makes it, I trust, you know what I'm going to get when I go into your shop.
Stephen Gribben 37:25
So this is that consistency, and also the consistency if I don't get to speak to you this time, I get to speak to your colleague, it's expecting the same. And it's also in those personal relationships, that consistency, that your friends and family have good days and bad days. But what should be consistent is their transparency about it. You always know where they're coming from no matter where they've ended up.
Warren Hammond 37:50
And again, I'm trying not to do the good or bad, but that whole consistency and trust is your experience is whenever I go in there I can trust is going to be chaotic and mad, and I don't know what's going to happen. And actually, that's why I love going in there. Or that's why I hate going okay, it's your experience. This is one of the dials that will be going up or down is what you can trust and what is consistent. Okay
Stephen Gribben 38:11
What you may find is the experience that's going to drive your satisfaction and loyalty might be a little bit off putting for me. But this is you being you rather than forcing yourself to like something that you're don't. Or starting to think that satisfaction and loyalty probably just isnt for me. I'm probably not going to get that experience anywhere. Being clear.
Stephen Gribben 38:38
You've got trust, got consistency. The third is convenience. It is one of the most underrated things, but it's one of the most hugely valued when you become aware of it. it is the convenience. Really easy to deal with. Really accessible, flexible, you know, on a personal level, those people will just go Yeah, sure. No problem. Yeah, I can do that. Do you want me to you pick up, I'll come and pick you up. You want to change it from eight o'clock to nine o'clock? Yeah sure. You want to go that place near your house? Yeah, no problem. Want to move it to Friday. Yeah. Why dont I come to you.
Warren Hammond 39:21
Yeah, it makes sense. It just feels by Trust is this big word, you know, kind of nebulous, and then consistency, execution discipline, and then convenience. Kind of just feels like kind of a nice guy thing. But what you're saying is don't underestimate that in the importance in the value of the experience that something is convenient.
Stephen Gribben 39:42
Yeah, and also that you're consciously deciding to provide that as an accommodation at that other person's convenience. Not that it doesn't matter whether it's Tuesday or Friday, I don't care, Friday if you want. But no, we had Tuesday. You want to make it Friday. I'm going to move things around and be there for you on Friday, dont' worry about that
Warren Hammond 40:03
And also, then, as part of your way, you're looking at it, if you think you're having an amazing experience, it's understanding how much of that is because it is convenient, or how it would be improved if it could be more convenient. So again, that's that self management and self determination is, is if we could change this so there was a degree more convenience in this arrangement between the two of us, my level of satisfaction would go up.
Stephen Gribben 40:28
Yeah, and if you look at how we're all far more than online customer than we ever were before. And one of the big things about what determines the success of an online product or service is its level of convenience, or it will be termed user experience will be all these things will be sort of wrapped up in that. But that convenience, you know, not having to put your payment details in all the time and changing your address and going across all those different accounts. And you'll certainly know when it's inconvenient. And you'll certainly not care about the level of quality and the level of innovation when you can't access something. Or when you're having to move your life around someone being there.
Warren Hammond 41:11
You're right it's massive. Okay, trust consistency, convenience.
Stephen Gribben 41:18
The fourth one is personalised. Finding that degree of personalization. On an informal basis in terms of relationships, even to the point of remembering someone's name.
Warren Hammond 41:32
It's so powerful, isn't it that name, that knowing the details, knowing some history being able to change...Yeah,
Stephen Gribben 41:41
Just that level of personalization. And as a customer, someone, you know, welcomes you into the bar, or welcoming them on to their online platform with 'Hi and it's your name.'
Warren Hammond 41:54
Minor aside, I mean, I stopped going into one of my Starbucks when they thought my name was Darren, and not Warren. And after going in there for a week, you know, I'm too English to explain to them that my name was Warren, so I just had to stop going in there because I was too embarrassed to tell that got my name wrong. But then the other place, they did know your name, they did know your coffee card, they did know what you wanted, they did know how you wanted your coffee, I became this loyal, satisfied customer. That's crazy, isn't it? Just these tiny things, you're right, have such an important place.
Stephen Gribben 42:30
Personalization just makes you feel you're where you should be. You belong. And on a personal level, when someone just recognises and welcomes you into the company or remembers your name or anything at all. You just feel like you belong. There's that immediate connection. And so that personalization is important. Personalization has been used by businesses many, many times, in particular, with the amount of data that they can work on, so that they're not just sending you good ideas, they're sending you personalised, good ideas. You looked at this, therefore, this is something else you're probably going to be interested. So that personalization is really important.
Warren Hammond 43:17
I love that, that sense of belonging, I think that's the thing isn't it. It isn't just as you said, a cookie saying, this is your name, it's that feeling of, and therefore, here's something for you like you just said, Okay. Like that.
Stephen Gribben 43:31
The fifth is about clarity of benefit. It is always having it uppermost in your mind, the benefit. So the impact. What difference does this actually make for me?
Warren Hammond 43:49
Okay, so this is the experience I'm getting from a company or a person or relationship, me being clear about the benefit that I'm getting from that relationship? Or is it the other party reminding me in a very nice subtle way of the benefit I'm getting?
Stephen Gribben 44:09
Well, if you're a company, and you really want to really engage your customers with more satisfaction, and loyalty in terms of clarity of benefit, it's making clear the benefits that you're providing to them. So 'this is going to save you a lot of time'. This is going to eliminate these risks and dangers for you. This is a level of assurance that you can get, this is the level of prestige that you will have.
Warren Hammond 44:34
That's it. So this is, again, once you're conscious of these elements that are involved in experience, you can bend them, manipulate them, say as you want. So that you know that this is something you subtly or however you do it, make sure that the people you want to be satisfied and to be loyal, are clear about the benefits that you are offering to them. So yeah, you don't have to hit them over the head with it necessarily but make sure that in your messaging and your communication that somehow or other people are saying, This is why I'm with this company,
Stephen Gribben 45:07
On a personal level, that clarity of benefit may be, you know, I'm always going to listen to you with an objective mind. You know, I'm always going to be there for you. You know, you can pick up the phone at any time, you know, you've got that support. You know if I say I'll be there, I'll be there. So you know you can be reassured,
Warren Hammond 45:26
And that consciousness of this, this one really jumps out for me for that, because some of the other ones you think, yes, I should do maybe more of that. But that clarity of benefit This is 'don't let it go unsaid and unfelt'. It links us back a little bit to the value creation model - make sure that what you're doing is landing nicely and properly without being in their face.
Stephen Gribben 45:47
Yeah. As I said before, in the example about trust, some recruitment businesses become so unconscious of the benefit, that they start to think the benefit is that they fill the vacancy. That's the quality. The experience is the benefits in terms of time, the terms of experience, insight, clarification, objective view, all those kind of things, loads and loads of benefits, if you clarify them. Clarified benefits.
Warren Hammond 46:22
Okay.
Stephen Gribben 46:22
And the sixth and final one is ongoing contact. With the technology we have literally at our fingertips nowadays. Why would you not be able to maintain ongoing contact with anybody at all? Unless what you were communicating was you are really not that interested? And if I'm not really that interested, but could you just buy the products because they're quite good and then a little bit different?
Warren Hammond 46:49
Okay. So ongoing contact. So when we talk about questions, it was the sometimes the value in the question is in the asking the question, so the value in ongoing contact is in what you're communicating to them? Or is it the the fact is ongoing is the value?
Stephen Gribben 47:06
It's the demonstration that you've been genuinely and authentically interested. So it reinforces the experience that the customer is important. So that ongoing contact, and that's not just the time aspect of it, it's phases and situations and cycles, you know, if you're only going to be contacting your customers when you know they're in the buying cycle. But would you still have ongoing contact just after that buying cycle? Would you still be in contact all the way through the process? Or are you just there for the bits that commercially matter directly? So ongoing contact is the 'you can talk to me about anything'. Ongoing contact is, 'I'm always interested'. Ongoing contact is 'no matter what's going on in my life or your life, I'll still reach out 'How's things? How's things going? I know, we don't have anything formal, we don't have any problems or issues or contracts to deal with, but how are things
Warren Hammond 48:16
So from a marketing campaign, that's what I'm thinking of, in online marketing, that seems quite difficult to do if you bought a particular software from me, which solves problem x. And it's solving problem x for you. Would you do I mean, just the ongoing contact is Yeah, how's that working out for you? That feels like a customer survey, not a genuine authentic, how's it going with the rest of your business?
Stephen Gribben 48:41
There's a lot of ongoing contact nowadays, which can be systematic, which is great. When you can put it into your system. Periodically, it's going to churn out stuff and keep you in contact. That ongoing contact is also your ability to build on that reason for contact. If you've got a systemized marketing or customer relationship management system in place that's churning out all the periodical stuff. Would you still then be contacting them and just saying "how's things?' not necessarily with the product or the campaign or whatever, but how are you? On a personal level it's always great to hear from people. And it's always good to hear from people you haven't heard from in a while. But it's also really special to be knowing that you hear from people ongoing. They're part of your life not just visiting your life.
Warren Hammond 49:38
Yes. So as I say, it's always a bit like a slap in the face. Some of this is so obvious. That's great. I guess that's part of the power of these isn't it is that it's being conscious of some of these things which are already there. And using the power of the fact that you're conscious of them to bend these things and to determine what happens next for you.
Stephen Gribben 50:01
Well, we've always looked at this on an operational level, anybody listening to this will know that they already do that. And they've already done it. But they've maybe not done it consistently, consciously, or with conviction. Yeah. And so just to understand the process allows you then to be more self aware that there is a process. And it's a process that sometimes you've been either stumbling across or putting into practice, periodically. But actually taking ownership, you can do this whenever you want, you can generate the level of satisfaction and loyalty whenever you want. If you think someone's attitude or behaviour towards you is not as you would wish it to be, then here are ways to change the dynamics of that relationship to increase the level of satisfaction and loyalty, to improve the attitude, to improve the behaviour. So at an operational level, you've already been doing this.
Stephen Gribben 51:00
But at a management level, this has been able then to make conscious decisions on how you want things to be, to improve the way things are, to understand how it works, and make sure that these are optimised. But then at that strategic level is to get your head up, looking that little bit further forward and seeing what kind of relationships do I want to generate and foster. Either relationships that I have with others, or customers or businesses or whatever, but what level of satisfaction and loyalty do I want to generate.
Warren Hammond 51:35
I like that. That whole future, that whole future state is so good. And as you're saying, so even if you're in a relationship, which you're not getting satisfaction, you can always use these to dig out reasons to be more satisfied. I mean, if you haven't got a choice, sometimes, this can almost help you reframe how you're experiencing that. You can look at these things and say Actually, this is remarkably convenient. And so it's sort of like ticks up the points for you or it's brilliant actually, that this person does know me. So well, it helps you to reframe it. From a personal view, it also means that you could go back to the other person, the other party and say, these are the things that will help me make these things better for me.
Stephen Gribben 52:21
And also what happens a lot in relationships, both personally and professionally, is they burn bright really quickly, at times, and then they dim a little bit. And unfortunately, too many people go 'just what happens, you know, this has happened before, this is the way it goes. There's nothing you can do about it'. But actually, you can look at it and say 'on these six components, what bits starting to wither a little bit; what bit are we maybe now taking for granted. What bit would actually elevate and improve things? You know, Maybe if we did put a little bit more effort to be a little more considerate of each other, convenient with each other, or actually I recognised you more as an individual rather than the role you're now playing. Or just being a little bit more consistently less moody. So these things you can look at and say, Well, I'm going to determine where this relationship can get to, rather than just manage the decline. Because it's not just something that happens to you. It's something that you can allow or choose not to.
Warren Hammond 53:33
That's a great way of summing up the self determination part of the whole self development story. That's great. There's so much more that we could talk about. Would love to talk about some of the more business aspects of it, but we are out of time. This was a great experience for me. Thank you very much, Stephen, talk to you again next week. Thank you.
Warren Hammond 54:04
So there we have it. Experience is key. And as always when you think about it, it makes sense. Why like about this is when we think of satisfaction and loyalty it can sometimes feel quite nebulous in how do you create that feeling of satisfaction? How would you create the behaviour of loyalty? Broken down into these component parts actually feels something you can work on, feel something that you do, maybe not every single thing every single time. But all of these things feel familiar. We just sometimes miss them out. Or do them in the wrong order, or put too much emphasis on one thing or consistently disregard another. With all these models. I think the power in them is the simplicity and sometimes the in your face obviousness of it. And that's why they're so strong. Anyway, lots to chew on this, put the model online or put a picture of it so you can see of yourself, but it's pretty straightforward. And there is a full transcript as well available. So for those who'd like to read along or to take written notes, be back again next week. Hope you enjoyed it